PROF. REGAMAY: But first I
would like to express my thanks
that you gave me this honor to
receive me. So I have different
questions because I’m in such a
difficult situation that I have
many Indian doctrines, and there
was some difficulty because I
know them only through the
books, without the guru. And,
for instance, one of the first
questions I have to put: Viṣṇu
Purāṇa, it’s very similar and very
coincidental to the Śrīmad-
Bhāgavatam.
PRABHUPĀDA: Yes. Yes, Viṣṇu
Purāṇa.
PROF. REGAMAY: Is that…
Practically, can it be considered
that it’s the same kind of…
PRABHUPĀDA: Yes, Viṣṇu Purāṇa
is Vaiṣṇava literature. There are
eighteen Purāṇas. Out of
eighteen, six are sāttvika, and six
are rājasika, and six are
tāmasika. The sāttvika Purāṇas,
they are Vaiṣṇava literature.
Viṣṇu Purāṇa, Brahmāṇḍa
Purāṇa, Bhāgavata Purāṇa,
Padma Purāṇa.
PROF. REGAMAY: The same…
Because I understood through…
It is that the problem, that Kṛṣṇa
is the original person of divine,
but in, by Rāmānuja or Viṣṇu
Purāṇa it reverse Viṣṇu is the
highest.
PRABHUPĀDA: Kṛṣṇa means
Viṣṇu.
PROF. REGAMAY: And Kṛṣṇa is
the avatāra of Viṣṇu.
PRABHUPĀDA: No. Kṛṣṇa is
avatārī. You have read
Bhagavad-gītā?
PROF. REGAMAY: Yes, of
course.
PRABHUPĀDA: Kṛṣṇa says, ahaṁ
sarvasya prabhavaḥ. Find out this
verse.
ahaṁ sarvasya prabhavo mattaḥ
sarvaṁ pravartate iti matvā
bhajante māṁ budhā bhāva-
samanvitāḥ [Bg. 10.8]
So sarvasya. There are originally
three deities: Brahmā, Viṣṇu,
Maheśvara. So Kṛṣṇa says, ahaṁ
sarvasya prabhavaḥ: I am the
origin of all the deities.” Read it.
GURU GAURĀṄGA:
ahaṁ sarvasya prabhavo mattaḥ
sarvaṁ pravartate iti matvā
bhajante māṁ budhā bhāva-
samanvitāḥ [Bg. 10.8]
“I am the source of all spiritual
and material worlds. Everything
emanates from Me. The wise
who know this perfectly engage
in My devotional service and
worship Me with all their hearts.”
PROF. REGAMAY: Yes, I know
what it is in the Bhagavad-gītā
but, for instance, in the words of
Rāmānuja, it is not Kṛṣṇa, but it
is Viṣṇu which is the highest
form. So this one question, what
I had to put that… And also…
May I sit down on…? I would be
much more…
PRABHUPĀDA: Oh, yes. Give him
another pad.
PROF. REGAMAY: Among the
avatāras which are described in
the second and third book of
Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam, there are
two questions I have to put.
There is Kṛṣṇa Himself, who
appears as His own avatāra, and
the Kṛṣṇa, the yādava Kṛṣṇa.
PRABHUPĀDA: Kṛṣṇa, when He
appears within this material
world… That is also in the
Bhāgavatam, that He appears as
Viṣṇu incarnation. But actually,
Kṛṣṇa is the… In the Brahma-
saṁhitā it is stated, yasyaika-
niśvasita-kālam athāvalambya
jīvanti loma-vilajā jagad-aṇḍa-
nāthāḥ, viṣṇur mahān sa iha
yasya kalā-viśeṣaḥ [Bs. 5.48] You
understand?
PROF. REGAMAY: Yes, I
understand.
PRABHUPĀDA: Viṣṇur mahān,
Mahā-Viṣṇu, yasya iha kalā-viśeṣo
govindam ādi-puruṣaṁ tam
ahaṁ bhajāmi. So the Mahā-
Viṣṇu, the origin of the material
creation… There is Mahā-Viṣṇu in
the Causal Ocean. From Him the
Garbhodakaśāyī-Viṣṇu enters into
each and every universe.
Yasyaika-niśvasita-kālam
athāvalambya jīvanti loma-vilajā
jagad-aṇḍa-nāthāḥ [Bs. 5.48]. So
jagad-aṇḍa-nātha is Brahmā. So
he is produced on the
Garbhodakaśāyī Viṣṇu. And this
Garbhodakaśāyī-Viṣṇu is
expansion of Mahā-Viṣṇu. And
Mahā-Viṣṇu is kalā viśeṣaḥ,
partial expansion of Kṛṣṇa. Yasya
hi, yasya hi. What is that? You
have Brahma-saṁhitā?
DEVOTEE: You have a copy
downstairs.
YOGEŚVARA: Yasya prabhā
prabhavataḥ [Bs. 5.40].
PRABHUPĀDA: No, that is
another. Yasya niśvasita-kālam
avalambya. Mahā-Viṣṇu is
breathing. So taking advantage
of that breathing, innumerable
universes are generating. And
each universe, there is a
superintending deity who is
called Brahmā. Yasya hi
niśvasita-kālam. Kālam atha
avalambya jīvanti loma-vilajā
jagad-aṇḍa-nāthāḥ. Many
hundreds and millions of
Brahmās there are. They live,
only taking advantage of the
breathing period of Mahā-Viṣṇu.
[break] Mahā-Viṣṇu is sub-
plenary portion. First Kṛṣṇa, then
Balarāma, then Saṅkarṣaṇa,
Pradyumna, Aniruddha,
Vāsudeva. Vāsudeva,
Saṅkarṣaṇa. Then, from
Saṅkarṣaṇa, Nārāyaṇa. Then,
from Nārāyaṇa, again catur-
vyūha, second Saṅkarṣaṇa,
Vāsudeva, Aniruddha. And from
the second Saṅkarṣaṇa is Mahā-
Viṣṇu. And from Mahā-Viṣṇu,
Kāraṇodakaśāyī-Viṣṇu. And from
Kāraṇodakaśāyī-Viṣṇu,
Kṣīrodakaśāyī-Viṣṇu. The
Kṣīrodakaśāyī-Viṣṇu is in each
universe. He is the Supersoul.
And when any incarnation comes
within this world, He comes
through Kṣīrodakaśāyī-Viṣṇu. In
that way, Kṛṣṇa comes through
Kṣīrodakaśāyī-Viṣṇu. But this
Kṣīrodakaśāyī-Viṣṇu is the
expansion of the expansion of
Kṛṣṇa.
PROF. REGAMAY: Yes, I see,
but...
PRABHUPĀDA: It is like that.
PROF. REGAMAY: Yādava Kṛṣṇa
spoke with Arjuna…
PRABHUPĀDA: Huh?
PROF. REGAMAY: It was the
personal God Himself or it was an
incarnation, this Kṛṣṇa which is in
Bhagavad-gītā?
PRABHUPĀDA: Advaitam
acyutam anādim ananta-rūpam
[Bs. 5.33] Kṛṣṇa is one. Advaitam
acyutam. Infallible. Anādi, He has
no cause. Ananta-rūpam.
Ananta-rūpam. Advaitam
acyutam anādim ananta-rūpam
ādyaṁ purāṇa-puruṣam [Bs.
5.33]. He is the origin. Advaitam-
acyutam anādim ananta-rūpam
ādyaṁ purāṇa-puruṣaṁ nava-
yauvanaṁ ca [Bs. 5.33]. Still,
He’s just a fresh young boy.
Govindam ādi-puruṣaṁ tam
ahaṁ bhajāmi. So Govinda is the
ādi-puruṣam. Aham ādir hi
devānām. Find out this verse,
aham ādir hi devānām.
Rāmānujācārya has also
admitted Kṛṣṇa the Supreme.
Śaṅkarācārya has admitted in his
notes on Bhagavad-gītā, sa
bhagavān svayaṁ kṛṣṇaḥ. What
is that?
Nitāi:
na me viduḥ sura-gaṇāḥ
prabhavaṁ na maharṣayaḥ aham
ādir hi devānāṁ maharṣīṇāṁ ca
sarvaśaḥ [Bg 10.2]
“Neither the hosts of demigods
nor the great sages know My
origin for in every respect I am
the source of the demigods and
the sages.”
PRABHUPĀDA: This is very good
example. There are many
candles. Just like you ignite one
candle. Then from this candle,
another candle, another candle.
Then many thousands of candles.
So each candle is of the same
power, lighting power. But still
the first one is called original. So
far the candle power is
concerned, they are of equal
flame, but still, the first candle,
the second candle, the third
candle. like that.
PROF. REGAMAY: Yes, I
understand.
PRABHUPĀDA: Dīpārcir eva hi
daśāntaram abhyupetya dīpāyate
vivṛta-hetuḥ [Bs. 5.46] They are
not derived from any other
power. They are all Viṣṇu-tattva.
Dīpārcir eva hi daśāntaram
abhyupetya dīpāyate, yas tādṛg
eva ca viṣṇu-tayā vibhāti [Bs.
5.46]. This is the expansion of
Viṣṇu, Viṣṇu-tayā. Govindam ādi-
puruṣam. He is always referring,
Govinda, Kṛṣṇa. Govindam ādi-
puruṣaṁ tam ahaṁ bhajāmi.
PROF. REGAMAY: Yet I still think
of this problem why Lord Kṛṣṇa
had to have an incarnation like
Buddha who was teaching atheist
doctrine and no…
PRABHUPĀDA: That is described.
I have described in the Śrīmad-
Bhāgavatam. Find out, Śrīmad-
Bhāgavatam, First Canto, first
part.
PROF. REGAMAY: I read it in
your commentary to Śrīmad-
Bhāgavatam that he was, he
didn’t need to preach the worship
of God because He was Himself
God.
PRABHUPĀDA: Yes.
PROF. REGAMAY: But He doesn’t
say it in the text.
PRABHUPĀDA: That is described
in the Bhāg…, sammohāya sura-
dviṣām [SB 1.3.24]. Sammohāya,
just to bewilder the atheist class
of men. The atheist class of men,
we’re advocating “There is no
God.” So He appeared before
them… And they were killing
animals like anything. So
Buddhadeva inaugurated the
non-violence. So therefore He is
God Himself, and He is teaching,
“There is no God.” This is rather
cheating.
PROF. REGAMAY: Yes. Not
teaching, but cheating.
PRABHUPĀDA: Yes. (laughing)
So sometimes… Just like a child
does not want to go to school. So
the teacher says, “No, no, you
don’t require to go to… There is
no need. But what do you see in
your front?” “That’s a cow.”
“Now, what is this?” “A leg.”
“Then what is next?” “Second
leg.” “What is this?” “Third leg.”
So he is teaching mathematics,
but practically, he says, “You
don’t require go to school. You
just count the legs of the cow,
that’s all.” It is like that.
PROF. REGAMAY: Now there are
some schools of Buddhists who
are worshiping Buddha like a
God.
PRABHUPĀDA: Yes, He is God.
He is God. They don’t accept
Buddha as incarnation of God.
But from Vedas we understand
that He is incarnation of God.
PROF. REGAMAY: But he brought
to the world the ahiṁsā, but I
think ahiṁsā appears already in
the Bhagavad-gītā. But there was
ahiṁsā also by the Jains.
PRABHUPĀDA: Ahiṁsā, because
at that time people were killing
animals in the name of yajña.
Just like in the Christian world
the order is not to kill, but still,
they are killing. So this misuse of
scriptural injunction is always
going on. A class of men there
are who abuse the scriptural
injunctions and go on with their
own motive. So there was a
period when people, under the
protection of Vedas… Because
Vedas, animal sacrifice is
recommended for certain
purpose, to test the proper
chanting of Vedic mantras. The
animal was not killed. The animal
was put into the fire. Then again
it would come out with new life.
That is the proper chanting of the
Vedic mantras. So for that
purpose, animal sacrifice… Just
like in biological laboratories,
they experiment on the body of
animals, frogs, guinea pigs.
Similarly, a similar experiment
was made, how the Vedic mantra
is being properly chanted. The
test was that animal should be
put into the fire, and if the Vedic
mantras were properly being
chanted, then that animal would
come with a new body. So an old
cow or bull was put and he would
come with fresh body. That was
the purpose. Now later on, they
began to eat meat by so-called
animal sacrifice. In that period
Lord Buddha appeared. About
him it is, description is there,
sadaya-hṛdaya darśita-paśu-
ghātam. The Lord became
compassionate on the animals, as
they were being killed
unnecessarily. So Buddha, Lord
Buddha, his only mission was to
stop the sinful activities of
animal… Ahiṁsā paramo
dharmaḥ. He was teaching that.
But these rascals, they would
show the evidence… Just like
Christians says that “Lord Jesus
Christ ate fish” or something like
that. Because Lord Jesus Christ
ate fish, therefore they should
maintain slaughterhouse. This is
their reasoning. The other day
somebody questioned me that… I
said that killing of animals is
sinful activity. So somebody
questioned that “Lord Jesus
Christ ate fish,” somewhere. So I
said that He is powerful. He can
eat the whole world. But you
cannot imitate. You have to
follow his instructions, what he
says. He said, ‘Thou shall not kill.’
So you should follow his
instruction, not the action.” He is
powerful. He can act some way
or other, according to
circumstances. That is his
business. Actually, that is the
Vedic statement, that just like
the sun, the sun can absorb the
urine. People pass urine on the
street, and the sunshine absorbs
the urine, evaporates, but sun is
still pure. Rather, the place
where the urine was passed, it
becomes disinfected. Similarly,
those who are powerful, īśvara,
godly, you cannot imitate their
actions. They are apparently
doing something wrong; still,
they are pure. The same
example. The sun is absorbing or
evaporating the urine, but sun is
still pure. But if I imitate and lick
up the urine, that is not very
good business. Similarly, we
cannot imitate the powerful, we
have to simply follow the
instruction of the powerful. That
is… But people, on slight
imitation… Is that very good
reason? Suppose Christ
sometimes ate fish, but that is
sufficient reason to maintain big,
big slaughterhouse? Because
Christ said… And he teached in
the desert. Suppose there was no
food and he had to eat some
fish. So that is his business. He
could do it. He is powerful. But
does it mean on that strength
throughout the whole world the
Christians will maintain big, big,
up-to-date machinery for
slaughterhouse? So it is sinful. So
Buddha wanted to stop this
nonsense, who were eating and
killing animals on the strength of
Vedas. They did not know what is
the meaning, but they would say
in the Vedas it is stated, paśavo
vadhyaḥ sṛṣṭaḥ: “The animals are
created for being killed.” And
what purpose it is killed? They,
without knowing… Actually, they
wanted to satisfy their tongue by
eating the flesh, but they would
give Vedic evidences. So to stop
this nonsense business Buddha
said that “I don’t care for your
Vedas.” Nindasi yajña-vidher
ahaha śruti-jātam. Śruti-jātam
means Vedic injunction.
PROF. REGAMAY: Yes.
PRABHUPĀDA: So he
condemned, “No, no. I don’t care
for your Vedas.” So he defied
Vedic injunction. Because
otherwise, he could not establish
his theory of nonviolence. The
violence, in a certain way, is
recommended in the Vedas. So if
he says, “No violence,” then it is
against Vedas. Therefore he had
to declare, “No, no, I don’t follow
the Vedic injunction.” And
because he did not, he publicly
declared that “I don’t follow
Vedic injunction,” therefore he is
taken as atheist. Atheist means
who does not take the authority
of the Vedas. Nindasi yajña-
vidher ahaha śruti-jātam. But he
did it. He is all-powerful. He can
do it. Why? Sadaya-hṛdaya
darśita-paśu-ghātam keśava
dhṛta-buddha-śarīra jaya jagadīśa
hare. We worship him like that.
Keśava dhṛta-buddha-śarīra jaya
jagadīśa. From philosophical
point of view, he is taken as
atheist. But we Vaiṣṇava we
know that He is God. He is God,
incarnation of God.
PROF. REGAMAY: I have been
struck in Ceylon on seeing in
Buddhist temples, Viṣṇu.
PRABHUPĀDA: Viṣṇu, yes. There
are in Penang. Penang also I
have seen. They admit that
Buddha is the incarnation of
Viṣṇu. That is admitted in the
śāstra. That means these
Ceylonese or Penangese,
originally they knew that Buddha
is incarnation of Viṣṇu. In Ceylon
you have seen?
PROF. REGAMAY: I have seen.
PRABHUPĀDA: Similarly, I have
seen in Penang also, Viṣṇu,
Viṣṇu-mūrti.
PROF. REGAMAY: And but he
said also, the doctrine of Buddha,
that man has not person, doesn’t
exist as person. He’s only some
moving elements, physical and
psychical and nothing else.
PRABHUPĀDA: Person. He is
person. He is person. Lord
Buddha is person.
PROF. REGAMAY: Yes, but
Brahman is not person. Brahman.
PRABHUPĀDA: Huh?
YOGEŚVARA: He says that
Buddha’s philosophy did not
admit a spiritual personal identity
to the living being, that Buddhist
philosophy was that we are
simply this combination of
chemicals.
PRABHUPĀDA: Yes. That is all
right.
PROF. REGAMAY: Chemical,
psychical, but no continuous, no
ātman.
PRABHUPĀDA: That is śūnyavādī.
We say also.
PROF. REGAMAY: So they are… I
think it’s… I must say that when
comparing different religions, I
see that for instance, what I find
here…
PRABHUPĀDA: There is no
different religion. As soon as one
tries to understand different
religion, it is to be concluded that
he does not know what is
religion. That religion cannot be
different. Religion is one. God is
one. And the order given by God,
that is religion. But “different”
means according to time and
circumstances… Just like Lord
Buddha, he is giving the same
religion. He is God, incarnation of
God. He is asking, “Just obey
Me.” The same philosophy is
being taught by Kṛṣṇa,
“Surrender unto Me.” That is
religion. Buddha also says
“Surrender unto Me. Obey Me.”
So that is religion. Yes. So the
religion is… One who knows God
and surrenders to Him, that is
religion, and anything, that is all
cheating. Anything else, that is all
cheating. That is not religion.
This is religion. God is one, and
surrender to God, that is religion.
That’s all. You take any religion,
it doesn’t matter. If one has
learned what is God and how to
surrender to Him, that is religion.
PROF. REGAMAY: But I noted
that for instance our Christian
approach to God…
PRABHUPĀDA: In Christianity
they also recommend surrender
to God.
PROF. REGAMAY: It’s nearer to
your approach than, for instance,
I don’t know, as the kevalādvaita
I mean, where nirguṇa-brahman
is the higher form of, than…
PRABHUPĀDA: Nirguṇa-
brahman… Just like… Here we
have got this example. This is,
what is called, New Zealand lake,
and a few step after…,
GURU GAURANGA: Geneva
lake.
PRABHUPĀDA: Geneva Lake. And
few step after French lake.
YOGEŚVARA: Because French is a
border of Geneva lake also.
Therefore sometimes it’s
considered French.
PRABHUPĀDA: So the sky is one.
Sky is one. So in the sky, in the
atmosphere, where God is
forgotten, that is called material
sky. And the sky where God is
not forgotten, that is spiritual
sky.